Liverpool Care Pathway - "Utterly Shocking"

Norman Lamb is interviewed by Eleanor Oldroyd on Weekend Breakfast. This is available for three  more days. Scroll to 2 hours and 20 mins in.

This is BBC Radio Five Live -
Weekend Breakfast

-17/02/2013

Phil Williams and Eleanor Oldroyd present.


Transcription follows:

Eleanor Oldroyd -

Health officials want to know what the families of people who have undergone the controversial Liverpool Care Pathway end of life treatment made of the experience. It's part of an independent review of the treatment which can involve withholding food and drink from terminally ill patients. We're going to speak now to the Care Minister, Norman Lamb. Good morning

Norman Lamb -

Good morning.

Eleanor Oldroyd -

What are your main concerns about how the system works at the moment?

Norman Lamb -

Well, I came into the job last September and since then we've had a lot of press coverage of stories of loved ones experiencing sometimes really disturbing things going on in hospitals and I was concerned enough at hearing these stories to feel that we did need an independent review and to hear directly from families of what they've experienced and, in a way, both good and bad because I think there are plenty of people who have said we have experienced a very good situation with a loved one dying in hospital and they used what they call the Liverpool Care Pathway. Other cases, where relatives haven't been told that the person's on the Liverpool Care Pathway, where, sometimes, they're just told your loved one is on the Liverpool Care Pathway as if that means anything to anyone, you know, we have to use language that people can understand. And then, really, some awful stories about food and fluids being inappropriately withheld when someone is compos mentis, someone who wants food and drink, and that being denied. Now, if those stories are true, and I've no reason to disbelieve them, they are shocking. So, we need to look at what's going on in our hospitals, hear the good and the bad, and to learn the lessons, and to make sure that everyone, wherever they die, in hospital or at home or in a hospice, has a dignified experience. And this is really what we're after.

Eleanor Oldroyd -

You, you said that there are, clearly, some families benefit to this way of going about things and, and you know, treating a very very difficult and delicate situation, the end of someone's life, but is there a chance if you get enough negative feedback, then, you might, the system could come to an end?

Norman Lamb -

Well, we will make changes, er, as necessary. This is, I want this to be a completely rational process. What I think everyone's agreed on is that there should be some guidelines about how to ensure that someone gets a dignified death, er but, you know, the problem often seems to be a complete misapplication of the Liverpool Care Pathway. So, for instance, the Liverpool Care Pathway itself in the guidelines makes it absolutely clear that you should sustain food and liquids, fluids for as long as possible; it makes it absolutely clear that relatives should always be informed and involved in decision making. But these are some of the things that haven't happened in hospitals. So, I suspect that one of the things that will emerge from it, although I don't want to in any way pre-empt this independent review, but I suspect that it will be a question of training, making sure that the professionals who are responsible for caring for someone at the end of life, really know what they are doing. 

Eleanor Oldroyd -

We were all shocked, of course, last week to hear about what happened at Stafford hospital and there's been an announcement, a statement, today from Jeremy Hunt who has written to all the NHS Trust in England and he's warned them against using gagging clauses to stop staff raising concerns over patient care. So, do you then think that this leads to whistle-blowers being protected, that this is a good thing that this should happen?

Norman Lamb -

Whistle-blowers, absolutely, have to be protected. When I was the Liberal Democrat opposition spokesperson for health, I campaigned against these gagging clauses and some of the massive pay-offs that we've seen in the NHS, sometimes, apparently, for failure. Er, this is completely unacceptable. If someone in a senior position isn't up to the job, then there are proper procedures to use to bring that employment to an end. It's completely inappropriate to enter an agreement to keep them silent about genuine patient concerns about safety in a hospital and to make large payments, sometimes running into hundreds of thousands of pounds - this is public money we're talking about here - it's completely inappropriate.

Eleanor Oldroyd -

Thankyou for talking to us. That's Norman Lamb who is the care minister.

Norman Lamb -

Thankyou.

Nothing new, nothing not expected -

"If those stories are true, and I've no reason to disbelieve them, they are shocking."

"We will make changes."

"I suspect that one of the things that will emerge from it, although I don't want to in any way pre-empt this independent review, but I suspect that it will be a question of training."

"We need to look at what's going on in our hospitals, hear the good and the bad, and to learn the lessons."

What is truly shocking, Mr. Lamb, is that you will 'take learnings' but no-one - no-one - is to be held responsible and accountable...